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This doesn’t disprove anything the US Military has said occured, if anything, this proves the Iranian ‘Navy’ was antagonizing the US ships.

Why is Iran requesting the speed and heading of a US ship in international waters?

Idiot, thanks for proving my point. Why didn’t we blow those boats up? The same reason we din’t send any F-16s to take down the 4 hijacked planes on 9/11! Inbred moron.

Bombbombbombbombbomb, Iran! Take that oil son!

3% :D

Is that really the Iranian navy? What a joke, their naval academy must be very good.

Let’s get right to the bottom of this.
America must win it’s “War on Terror!”
..or as some others call it, “War on Israel’s enemies!”

Wait… So the Iranians said the video from the pentagon was fabricated… and then they come out with their own? Proving it happened?

I think the US Navy showed great restraint by not sinking the Sea Monkeys.

What’s happened to all of the nay saying comparing this action to the “Johnson took us into Vietnam war” Gulf of Tonkin incident, or “Cheney will use this to invade Iran” claim?

Well done US Navy, God speed and best wishes from an old Army vet.

Does anyone think the Iranians are going to videotape themselves threatening a warship in international waters, then release the incriminating evidence?

After the USS Cole incident (remember that? bunch of terrorists in a small boat blowing a hole through a destroyer?) if I were the commander of that flotilla, I’d be seriously concerned that allowing those punks anywhere near my command after they announced intent to sink my ship might constitute improper hazarding – a court martial offense which carries the death penalty in time of war.

My point? I wouldn’t have blamed the commander of the US vessels at that scene if he’d blown those jerks out of the water by whatever means were handy.

Naval commanders have a responsibility to protect their commands – their ships and the lives of their crews – which is real and if not upheld, can actually subject them to serious criminal charges. Given our recent history with small boats in Middle Eastern waters, I would have been very, very uncomfortable in the shoes of the US sailors on those boats, and more so if I were the commander of the force – I mean, the bad guys ANNOUNCED THEIR INTENTION to SINK our ships. In the aftermath of the USS Cole, I’m surprised that this tactic did not result in those small boats being fired on.

Back during the 1980s, the Iranians did this sort of thing and escalated their conduct to the point of mining the Gulf and sinking neutral shipping. The US Army had to send a special ops detachment of armed OH-6 helicopters, the “Killer Eggs,” to deal with them – eventually sinking Iranian speedboats and landing craft (which were used to deploy the mines) as needed.

Time to bring back the Killer Eggs.

The incident that took place in the Strait of Hormuz last week should be of concern to the US government and Navy because it would appear that Iran is feeling us out and attempting to view what our responses may be while we conduct standard operations in the Persian Gulf. The issue of the small boats approaching the Port Royal, Hopper, and Ingarham may as a separate incident is not a huge deal, but this the third or firth time in the last 18 months that maritime units from Iran have ramped up the tension in the area. Iran maritime units have made mock runs at US Navy Aircraft Carriers in the AOR with the small boats (FIAC) Fast Inshore Attack Craft, (FAC) Fast Attack Craft missile and torpedo type, and if that’s not worrisome enough they ran a (UAV) Unmanned Aerial Vehicle at the Ronald Reagan CVN 76 five months ago (view on YouTube). The actions of the Iranian forces would indicate that they are feeling us out, and may use this data for future maneuvers against western forces in theater.

When initial press reports of the incident came out last Monday I was shocked at the restraint used by CDR James on the Hopper, not engaging the FIAC. Not being in uniform my thoughts are not qualifiable, but I think they may have merit in the conversation. I believe that “Hostile Intent” did not exist in what I viewed, just poor seamanship on the part of the IRG boats.

This scenario brings out points that need to be brought to the forefront and discussed in an attempt to give true definition to the when do we shoot question. Under the current Rules of Engagement (ROE) a Commanding Officer (C.O.) has the inherent right of the ships defense, but what does that truly mean? If you look at unclassified ROE used for training the ship needs to be fired upon before it can engage a suspected vessel. In my opinion this handicaps the ship from the start. Think about it this way if Kirk Lipold the C.O. of USS Cole had engaged the suicide boat that attacked his ship on October 12, 2000 he would have overstepped the ROE that was in effect. I don’t have the answer, but this gray area of current doctrine needs and should be resolved giving applicable guidance.

I have read and heard broadcasters saying that the IRG boats were not a threat and the Navy could have easily “blown them out of the water”, well I have to say not so fast. Our AEGIS ships like the Port Royal, and Hopper were designed to shoot down multiple missiles while protecting the Aircraft Carrier in a Battle group environment. We build these ships to fight the Russians back in the Cold War, and that was more of an Over the Horizon scenario/requirement. Now we are faced with this low tech threat that come at you with explosive loaded or anti tank weapon carrying FIAC that cause many problems for our line ships. That’s opens a new can of worms, but let it be said that this would not be the slam dunk that some people make it to be………

Come on lefty’s…you had alot to say about this yesterday! Its okay though…I forgive you. Now step up and join your fellow countrymen in spreading democracy. I think you will be pleasantly surprised that we are not out to “conquer the world” or get “rich off of oil.”

I think both sides are probably right:

The Iranians were clearly harassing US ships, and this is probably normal and occurs with regularity, as the Iranians say.

Choosing to air it now and making a big deal out of it clearly shows that the US Government is trying to keep up some pressure on Iran after their “nuclear bomb” threat was proven wrong.

I’m sure this kind of stuff happens all the time and is not any different from the Russians resuming long range bombing patrols near English airspace. Everyone pokes at everyone else and likes to flex their muscles.

Just don’t make the mistake of believing this in any way lets Bush off of the hook for betraying our brave servicemen and women.

James, you idiot; what do you mean saying Bush betrayed our service members? What a sophomoric statement. It barely deserves a rebuttal but it’s difficult to sit here and just let it go. You obviously have no clue about what it means to defend this country. Think before you post from now on and do us all a favor: don’t vote OR procreate.

In light of this video released by the Iranians, I am perplexed as to what they meant previously as to the Pentagon version being a fake compiled by file footage. All the ships and boats looked the same to me. The only thing that I don’t understand is how the ‘heavily accented’ voice of the supposed Iranian on radio with the American officer sounds so different. On the Pentagon version that voice sounds thicker and deeper; on the Iranian one that voice sounds a higher and not so sluggish. I wish someone would release the entire video…reports did say the incident played out over about 20 minutes or so, no?

It doesn’t look like the Iranians have much of a military might? Boats policing the Persian Gulf? Based on what has been appearing in the public, Vice President Dick Cheney seems to have an avid interest in having a ‘regime change’ in Iran (you can google and find the valid articles from reputable media for yourself). I am not defending anyone in this situation, except for the service men and women who must do what they are told, whether or not it seems to be in America’s interest (or the world’s for that matter; the U.S. doesn’t exist in a vacuum and depends on a lot of other countries for a variety of things).

I just can’t get pass the fact that the administration lied about Iraq/Saddam Hussein having a connection to Al-qaida/Bin Laden. They lied so we could have a ‘regime change’ in Iraq. That’s unpardonable. Look how long our soldiers have been over there and dying every day? How did that make them feel hearing that they were deployed into the region on false pretenses. Deliver bin Laden and make him pay for his crimes. Seeing Saddam Hussein hanged didn’t make me feel like I could sleep any better. He wasn’t the one recruiting suicide bombers or teaching people how to make IEDs.

I appreciate all of the good soldiers and wish that no lives were lost. But we’re bombing Iraq, killing civilians, while we broadcast al-qaida videos on a regular basis and give this bin Laden figure ‘press releases’ and whatnot. What do you think would happen if the media stopped airing his dumb videos and publishing his dumb statements? They wouldn’t have much of an audience, that’s for sure.

In summary, what’s wrong with questioning that things that you are told by wealthy, unaccountable people in positions of power who control practically everything in your daily life? From what goes into your foods to what is aired on television and printed in the paper. I respect our leaders, but who says they are perfect or 100% honest all of the time? Power can corrupt, blind and wear away the conscience.

Interesting that the American side is now having trouble with documentation.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4115702&page=1

I wonder where the truth will finally end up…

Of course, they are both wishing for war…

Mitch,

Betrayal, look it up. When a privileged, ivy league, phony cowboy, draft dodging President sends American troops to fight and die based on lies, it’s called betrayal.

As someone from a Marine Corps family with three generations of military service (including a silver star) and who currently has family serving abroad, may I say: Kiss my !!!! I know the sacrifices the military makes so don’t question my understanding of the situation.

Bush betray?

Please get serious… virtually all politicians nowadays have betrayed the American people, especially Congress. At least President Bush will not back down.

But is it not the politicians that scare ne… it is really the wonks that man our State department and intelligence offices. Those are the people you really cannot trust.

Daniel–Is there anymore of a contradiction in terms than “spreading democracy” How do you *force* democracy? You can’t force freedom; a lot of the citizens themselves of those countries don’t have any desire for any sort of Western democracy. It’s not only radical Muslims who feel that way either.

Back down from what Tim? From a war he created?
http://polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operatives-admit-al-qaeda-is-a-complete-fabrication.html

Wow those rafts were really a threat to those warships.

SO DID HE ACTUALLY SAY “WERE GONNA BLOW YOU UP”

ALL THE SUPPOSED AMERICANS HERE A JEWS WHO WANT US REAL CHRISTIAN AMERICANS TO FIGHT FOR ISRAEL IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

THE IRANIANS ARE INOCENT THE ONLY RATS ARE THE JEWS

“Wow those rafts were really a threat to those warships.”

Tell that to sailors aboard the USS Cole

“SO DID HE ACTUALLY SAY “WERE GONNA BLOW YOU UP””

Not in the film, but this film DOES prove that the confrontation happened. Would Iran REALLY release footage of its sailors saying they are going to blow up a US warship? Come on, think about it.

“THE IRANIANS ARE INOCENT THE ONLY RATS ARE THE JEWS”

Oh, right. Seems you aren’t capable of thought through your haze of antisemitism. Disagreeing with the Israeli occupation of Palestine is okay, but straight up calling Jews rats is counterproductive.

POWN3d !!

Lying ass US Navy just got owned !

“In summary, what’s wrong with questioning that things that you are told by wealthy, unaccountable people in positions of power who control practically everything in your daily life?”

What’s the benefit when someone with no personal experience or knowledge of a topic questions someone who has both experience AND knowledge?

“Power can corrupt, blind and wear away the conscience.”

So can stupidity.

“Betrayal, look it up. When a privileged, ivy league, phony cowboy, draft dodging President sends American troops to fight and die based on lies, it’s called betrayal.”

You’re a liar. Every word of your contention i false.

“As someone from a Marine Corps family with three generations of military service (including a silver star) and who currently has family serving abroad, may I say: Kiss my !!!! I know the sacrifices the military makes so don’t question my understanding of the situation.”

I’d sooner KICK your ***, but you’re ALL ***

I see YOU aren’t a past or present military member, so everything you say is coming out of your ***. You have no personal knowledge of anything.

Being a member of a Marine Corps family doesn’t make you an expert on anything. Heck, unless you’re a senior officer, being a member of any military service doesn’t make you an expert on anything but your particular discipline.

Groundpounders/grunts/dogfaces are taught to follow orders, and are not educated in world affairs.

I’m a vet. I spent ten years in Intel, and did two tours in the Gulf. I’ve been face to face with the enemy. I’ve been closer to this than anyone YOU know. You don’t know squat.

You’re just another clueless loudmouth. Get back under your rock kid.

I find it funny that we now consider unprovoked invasion defending our borders. That we consider anyone who looks at us weirdly as a foreign combatant and we’ll move them around never to be heard from again. That we are willing to give up our civil liberties in order to “defend ourselves” from the Islamic Radicals that are going to destroy our way of living (presumably meant to imply there will be no more shopping malls or Wal-marts). And all the while we just sit back and watch it happen. No one raises their voice. No one tries to stop it. We just keep voting more power hungry people into office and thank them for making us their slaves.

Mitch must resist him self from procreating or ever voting. He is simply the blind who thinks George Bush is a saint and is defending America and possible the world.

I’m no bush lover, and I’m certainly not in favor of starting any more wars. However, it stands to reason that SOP for a warship in international waters is to sink anything that comes too close for obvious reasons. If the US had PT boats buzzing (insert any country here)’s warships in international waters I would expect the US PT boats to be blown out of the water unless it was some type of joint military exercise. I’m sure both sides have plenty of blame to go around in the broader debate. The fact of the matter is that all warships can, will, and should enforce safe zones around themselves, American, Iranian, or otherwise.

Try again, idiot.

homer: “POWN3d !!

Lying ass US Navy just got owned !”

You can’t even put together a coherent paragraph, and you want to be taken seriously?

You’re an idiot, and you don’t have the first clue about the danger that faces this country. You’re just another anti-American loudmouth, and probably one of the terrorists.

Hardy: “I find it funny that we now consider unprovoked invasion defending our borders. That we consider anyone who looks at us weirdly as a foreign combatant and we’ll move them around never to be heard from again. That we are willing to give up our civil liberties in order to “defend ourselves” from the Islamic Radicals that are going to destroy our way of living (presumably meant to imply there will be no more shopping malls or Wal-marts). And all the while we just sit back and watch it happen. No one raises their voice. No one tries to stop it. We just keep voting more power hungry people into office and thank them for making us their slaves.”

You’re obviously stupid.

Jeff: “Wow those rafts were really a threat to those warships.”

[Quote]Mitch,

Betrayal, look it up. When a privileged, ivy league, phony cowboy, draft dodging President sends American troops to fight and die based on lies, it’s called betrayal.[/Quote]

President Clinton’s address to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Pentagon staff, February 17th, 1998 —>

“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear: We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program. We have to defend our future from these predators of the twenty-first century. They’ll be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein.”

Nothing really exciting or new here.

That “Sue” girl must have been working for CIA or some other arm of ZOG. Completely brainwashed or … just working for her cause.

The difference in the Iranian voice on US and Iranian tapes is probably due to a mismatch between the two radios… they were not precisely sync’d.

The arrival of that blue speedboat convicts the Iranians. They should have edited that out of this obviously patched-together tape.

It amazes me. No matter the subject, it seems there are so many people who want to express their own viewpoint, but want to slam others for doing the same. How is calling some stupid explaining your viewpoint? How is telling someone that they shouldn’t ask questions but to just trust everything their trained and experienced leaders tell them? If you don’t ever question anything you are told is true…that must mean you believe everything all of the time.

Some of you sound so full of anger and hate. What’s wrong in your life that you have to behave so disrespectfully to your ‘neighbor’?

– Oh I know, we’re stupid, ignorant and unpatriotic, lefty conspiracy theorists, right? So we know that. Formulate your thoughts and say something substantial in expressing your stance on the issue.

If we were not patrolling the oceans directly outside of Iran looking for a reason to attack them, then this interaction would have never occurred. We provoke them to perform this kind of behavior by occupying their countries and manipulating their governments. We have meddled far to much into other country’s business, and, yet, we ignore the problems occurring in our own country. We occupy 130 countries out of the 190 countries of the world right now, and we just presume that there is no ill will held toward us by these countries? Anyone who thinks this way has not even the faintest idea what the word empathy means and could not possibly see anything but their own convoluted viewpoint. We antagonize them, and they respond accordingly. Every action inevitably leads to a reaction.

Being patriotic also means that we should realize when our country has gone astray and try to lead it back into the right direction. It does not mean that you blindly support your country’s actions just because our government says that we need to “stay the course.”

[...] is the Iranian version of the video clip. Seems like the whole thing was just a bit of bullshit and made to be something it’s not. [...]

[...] Despite several presidents and a willing foreign policy we have been unable to introduce a acceptable peace treaty to either side. Yet, the major piece of business on the president’s mid-east tour is the growing Iranian problem. Last week, a group of Iranian speed boats charged a U.S. Navy destroyer in a “provocative” attack pattern. Sources within Washington and the military command quoted reliable sources saying, that there was a reasonable belief an attack on U.S. Forces was likely. Iranians however, “[insist] it only asked them to identify themselves, then let them continue into the Gulf”. The pentagon in response to the Iranian allegation of ’simply’ identifying the approaching U.S. destroyer, cited the obvious fact that all American naval ships are clearly marked as such. The video can be viewed here. [...]

Rakkur..or whatever your name is, the US is not “occupying” any country. Also, how can “provoke” anyone if you’re operating in international waters? You’re embarrassing yourself.

Haroldmaude:
You see, the reason those of us sound HATEFULE and ANGRY and are just unable to “let it go” is because no matter how much evidence is shown for our viewpoints, we still get idiotic replies that defy logic. So, you drips who call yourself tolerant can stop hammering us for geting upset with your drivel.

Not occupying? What do you call setting up bases all over the country? The Washington Post stated that we had 106 bases in Iraq as of May 2005. In April 2003, the NY Times said “the U.S. is planning a long-term military relationship with the emerging government of Iraq, one that would grant the Pentagon access to military bases and project American influence into the heart of the unsettled region.” The Pentagon stated that we had 14 “enduring” bases. Does that not qualify as occupation? What would you think if China came by your house and just set up a couple bases in your neighborhood? Would that be a similar circumstance to what you might define as occupation?

1 a: an activity in which one engages b: the principal business of one’s life : vocation
2 a: the possession, use, or settlement of land : occupancy b: the holding of an office or position
3 a: the act or process of taking possession of a place or area : seizure b: the holding and control of an area by a foreign military force c: the military force occupying a country or the policies carried out by it

Our government doesn’t come outright and actually say it, just as congress hasn’t declared war since WW2, but it’s occupancy nonetheless.

We are in international waters, but it’s still right offshore of their country. We’re a lot closer to them than they are to you, wouldn’t you say? What if they had a fleet of naval ships offshore of our country even if they were in international waters?

This is what I mean by empathy. We need to realize that our actions have real impact on people from other nations. We have troops all over the world. That puts the other nations on edge, and they are much more apt to harbor a disdain for us as a result of those actions.

What part of that is illogical? Wouldn’t you react in a similar manner?

Iranian Navy on an inflatable boat! hah! they obviously dont have GPS. We should have blown them out of the (international) water. Better safe than sorry. Ask those servicemen who died on the Cole. We should study our history better. Does anyone remember the Jimmy Carter-Iranian hostage crisis. Same thing here. they are trying to pick a fight so that the leaders remain poplular amongst there own people.

Rakkur,

You put so much effort into trying to define “occupying” and you still get it wrong. We have a “presence” in Iraq, but we do not RUN the country. We have, from the point where they elected a gov’t, URGED them to run their own affairs. We are there to help them and if you cannot see that, then there is no explaining it to you.

Also, what in the world does it matter that “we are a whole lot closer to Iran than they are to us”? International waters means just THAT; “INTERNATIONAL”. I’m sorry we don’t live in the Utopia you think is reality, but it just is not so. Would you rather we fight terror HERE or confront it BEFORE it reaches us? I’m not sure you are actually an American because you don’t appear to be FOR our side. If I’m wrong, I apologize, but that liberal, politically correct mindset is DEADLY dangerous. And what do we CARE if other nations “harbor disdain for us”? How ridiculous is it to worry about such a thing?? Here’s a clue: IT’S NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST. It’s ridiculous to even be debating that. Geeeeez… I’m saving this to look at when me or my friends need a laugh or when I want to graphically illustrate the typical liberal, cry-baby thought process. What a hoot…

forget it Rakkur, you’ve already shown Mitch to be wrong, now he’s just playing word games.
I can show you.
1.”I’m sorry we don’t live in the Utopia you think is reality, but it just is not so.” – He just blamed you for an idea that you never expressed.

2.”Would you rather we fight terror HERE or confront it BEFORE it reaches us” – I hear this repeatedly, but I never hear who is the “bad guy” now. They’re just blaming everyone in Iran for the actions of a few Iranians in the past. You know the story: The sins of the father past to the son.

3.”I’m not sure you are actually an American because you don’t appear to be FOR our side.” – who the @$%@! is “our” side. This is one of those people who thinks the world is split simply between “terrorists” and good guys. (and then they tend to take it even more insanely further and it turns into Americans vs. everyone else) If I had to give it a name, It would be something like; Nationalistic Partisan Zealot…something like that. very similar to Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. it’s what people like this guy eventually become.

4.”If I’m wrong, I apologize, but that liberal, politically correct mindset is DEADLY dangerous.”- Well, I’m not sure what to say about this, really. in the spirit of political correctness, your words wouldn’t actually qualify. It’s kind of like trying to make an intelligent argument that 1+1=2.
it’s more difficult to explain any further,.. it’s self explanatory.

5.”And what do we CARE if other nations “harbor disdain for us”? How ridiculous is it to worry about such a thing?? Here’s a clue: IT’S NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST. It’s ridiculous to even be debating that.”- No, it’s now. Action; reaction. Cause; effect. It’s not complicated. If we are doing something that is unnecessary for us to do, and it is pissing other people off so much that they are becoming willing to attack us for it, then consideration is the only logical course.

But you’re not arguing against logic, Rakkur. You are arguing against passion.
Passion rules reason. Always has.

Ok T.A.B…. good try.

1.”I’m sorry we don’t live in the Utopia you think is reality, but it just is not so.” – He just blamed you for an idea that you never expressed.
*******
An idea he never expressed? How do you explain all his pseudo-logic that isn’t rooted in any sort of reality at all?

2.”Would you rather we fight terror HERE or confront it BEFORE it reaches us” – I hear this repeatedly, but I never hear who is the “bad guy” now. They’re just blaming everyone in Iran for the actions of a few Iranians in the past. You know the story: The sins of the father past to the son.
**************************************************
You know who that bad guy is. You’re just too steeped in ideology to admit it. You seriously believe that radical Islam is NOT the bad guy? Come on. Try showing ME how that is NOT so. It’s purely sophomoric to suggest that “we are blaming everyone in Iran..blah blah blah”. I guess you’d say the leader of that country is just a fine fellow. Whatever.

3.”I’m not sure you are actually an American because you don’t appear to be FOR our side.” – who the @$%@! is “our” side. This is one of those people who thinks the world is split simply between “terrorists” and good guys. (and then they tend to take it even more insanely further and it turns into Americans vs. everyone else) If I had to give it a name, It would be something like; Nationalistic Partisan Zealot…something like that. very similar to Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. it’s what people like this guy eventually become.
***************************************************
Let me clue you in, genius. “OUR side” are those who might want to preserve our way of life over HERE. You talk about passion vs logic. You HAVE to be kidding. I provide YOU facts/logic and YOUR emotional response begets YOUR passion; the kind of passion that overrides any sane debate. Anyone who is proud of their country and seems the slightest bit patriotic is an idiot or worse to you and your ilk. God forbid some of us may desire NOT to be “progressive” and get all “huggy” with those who openly or tacitly support those who would do us harm. Those of us who think this way are compared to Nazis? Please. Your ridiculous “arguments” are exactly proportional to the level of your misguided emotions. Don’t talk to me about passion. My passion is for something real.

4.”If I’m wrong, I apologize, but that liberal, politically correct mindset is DEADLY dangerous.”- Well, I’m not sure what to say about this, really. in the spirit of political correctness, your words wouldn’t actually qualify. It’s kind of like trying to make an intelligent argument that 1+1=2.
it’s more difficult to explain any further,.. it’s self explanatory.
**************************************************
I have a feeling that you stepped off here into some la-la land where you thought you might be able to make a cogent point but alas, were unable to. This is where you should have stopped, but you didn’t, did you.

5.”And what do we CARE if other nations “harbor disdain for us”? How ridiculous is it to worry about such a thing?? Here’s a clue: IT’S NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST. It’s ridiculous to even be debating that.”- No, it’s now. Action; reaction. Cause; effect. It’s not complicated. If we are doing something that is unnecessary for us to do, and it is pissing other people off so much that they are becoming willing to attack us for it, then consideration is the only logical course.
*************************************************
Oh, I see. Let’s be SURE not to piss anyone off right? That is just sad. Where are you from? Are you saying that you believe the radical Islamists won’t attack us ANYWAY? Surely you don’t suscribe to that load of bunk. It’s not unfriendly to NOT worry what those nations THINK who don’t have the US’s best interests at heart. If you really think we haven’t reached out to others already, then you’re just ignoring fact. You probably think the UN is a great institution, too….right? I thought so.

Now, T.A.B. …try again

man!! i don’t have to try again. you just did it for me. you did the same thing with me that you did with him.

ok. i’ll let point 4 go. i wasn’t sure how to explain that properly and gave it my best shot. your obviously didn’t understand it, and i didn’t think you would because i knew it wasn’t very well done.

and no. i do not like the UN. or anything it controls or precludes. you really are making an a$$ of yourself with that. anyway, NO ONE but the US is going to have the US’s best interest at heart, they will have their own.

radical islam. true. “bad guy”. ok, no arguement there. but EVERY islamic person who fights or fights back is being called radical islam and immediately by the use of those 2 words are associated with al-qaeda (spelling??) and then blamed for the actions of everyone in the past.

and i’m not trying to override any debate. i AM debating with you. but you will NOT teach me or anyone ANYTHING by being so pissed off with me/us. calling someone insane is one of the surest ways to override debate, and perhaps the most commonly used tactic today.

But I can’t drop my point about who this “our side” is. I don’t like this way of life as it stands. so if that is the condition, then I am truly NOT on your side.

one more thing. love your country. cool, no problem. you are really misunderstanding me here. but your behavior in response is that passion that rules reason that I was talking about. hell man, if I’m wrong then I’m wrong and I’ll apologize for being so. If i had to shorten the whole thing down… consider every part of what you are told. How would you know if you are being lied to?

Mitch:
Great set of comments. You have done an amazingly good job of putting forth your points of view in a cogent manner.
I enjoyed hearing a voice of reason for a change.

Here we have Iranians even being thoughtful enough to speak English!

Contrast this with the actions of the scumbag terrorists in Israel that murdered 34 Americans aboard the USS Liberty.

http://counterpunch.org/stclair06082007.html

Hey Sue,

How about you quit painting yourself as some kind of war hero. Not only are you a woman, and therefore never held a position in combat arms, but you admitted yourself that you were “intel”, which is to say you sat at a desk all day and pushed paper (for the uninitiated, “intel” jobs in the military are nothing like the movies).

As a former army infantryman, arctic trained and desert deployed, let me say that I find your posturing just as offensive as that of the morons that think the Iranians are perfectly innocent.

I saw combat and I certainly don’t go around bragging about it. So why do you, especially when every military person reading your posts can see it is probably fabricated.

Oh brother! Iranians aren’t this stupid, are they? I guess they figure we were born yesterday… the same day this was shot. What a bunch of retards! And release it weeks later, like it’s worth something? OMG they are so effing stupid.

Do they have any idea how close to an orgy with 72 virgins they actually were? They could practically smell the phermones through the salt spray. These guys are so smelly even the sharks leave ‘em alone.

Hi Mitch..

I really don’t see why you think that my views are illogical. I am just looking at the world through the eyes of another person instead of just through my own, personal views. I look at what people strive for, which is mostly safety, nourishment, affection, acknowledgment, appreciation, power, wealth. I don’t value possessions + power nearly as much as the others, but, the point is, if you look at people, regardless of whether those people are here or in other countries or extremists or anyone on the planet, we are all different human beings with similar desires and needs. That’s where I differ from the liberal views, as I perceive the world through Libertarian ideals in that there are no collective groups of people. There are only individuals, and each one of them has the right to liberty and freedom.

So, then, why should these individuals be deprived of the same safety from oppressive nations that you and I have enjoyed thus far? You can call it a “presence” or an occupation or whatever you want, but you aren’t seeing it from their point of view. Let’s say, for example, that there was no federal government and all of the states here were different countries like in Africa or the Middle East. Now, consider the prospect of another country like China coming over and attacking the state next to you. I use the word attack because that’s exactly what we did to Iraq. China then sets up border patrols and barracks and positioned naval units, regardless of them being in international waters or not, all around your state. Would you consider it an act of kindness? Would you also feel safe from harm knowing that that China had just recently invaded the state directly next to yours and spoke out against your state as fueling terrorism?

We encourage these types of skirmishes and hatred towards our country by imposing on other countries and bullying them around. We have been pulling strings in the Iranian government for 50 years. We installed the Shah, who become a military dictator and an oppressor of the people before he was usurped from power by the angry Iranian masses. We installed Saddam in Iraq, who also became a dictator. And now, years later, we rip our own puppet down in the name of “spreading democracy”? Do you think the Iraqis really want democracy when we barely even have a working version of it in this country? I have read more about voting fraud and the “elite” media deciding the outcome of our elections more now than ever.

We need to set good examples for other countries. We do not achieve that by forcing them to do things and changing their governments. You can’t argue with me that we didn’t go in there and change their government. That’s the only reason they need help from us now; we destroyed their entire infrastructure and government. Realize that if we didn’t attack them, then we wouldn’t have needed to rebuild their society and instill a democratic government.

And why are you so angry that you would encourage our government to go around attacking other countries? What good becomes of our meddling in the nation building of other countries? We certainly aren’t fixing anything here, yet we feel inclined to tell other countries what they should and shouldn’t do as if we know any better. Are you fearful of this hidden terror that they rant about? Do you honestly think that the government is making you any safer by meddling in the affairs of other countries around the world? If you start hitting a cobra with a stick, he is probably much more apt to attack you than if you stayed back and allowed it to co-exist with you. The same thing happens with humans.

Fighting a war on an ideology or a concept is nothing more than an attempt to have a state of perpetual war. If you can’t see the enemy and you can’t actually define who or what or where the enemy is, especially if the enemy could be any person at any time in the entire world including America, then you are going to have a lot of trouble ending that war or even deciding on who to actually fight. Abraham Lincoln realized how easy it is to take away essential liberties and civil rights during a time of warfare. Nowadays they have figured out that all you need to do is create an endless war and you can take away all the people’s freedoms over time.

I’m not a crybaby. I’m not against war. I’m completely for self defense. You’ve stated that we have to attack them there before they come here, but is it right to blame the actions of a few radicals on an entire country or group of people and preemptively attack them? Should we wipe out a whole civilization simply because of what their leader makes them do mostly through acts of coercion? Should we punish them for the bad decisions that the individuals in their government make? By attacking another country we are doing nothing more than encouraging the people that live there to hate us and, therefore, contemplate terrorist activities as a response to that anger. action -> reaction, just as TAB said.

Regardless of anything, we need to realize that we are going bankrupt from gallivanting around the world. We don’t have the money to fight these wars anymore, and our economy is taking major hits from it. The dollar is plummeting in value, which is something that concerns me deeply.

I do not think that we live in a Utopian society at all; we are far from it. I believe that a free market would lead to much more prosperity for all people, and that our current system is abhorrent and grossly inefficient by comparison. I am an American. I believe in everything that this country was founded for. I do not believe that the direction it is headed in today was ever the original intent of our forefathers, and I especially think that following our current or any administration’s frame of mind blindly without questioning the reasons or truth behind it is extremely, even deadly, dangerous.

“peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.” ~Thomas Jefferson

Thank you Rakkur.

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